trolling for trout without downriggers

trolling for trout without downriggers

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2. Use the lead free section to join with the mono backing using a double uni knot. I have this Humminbird fish finder you can find on Amazon. Use the chart below to get a general idea of where your bait is in the water column. To minimize the effects of drag, choose the smallest diameter line possible. Trolling deep without downriggers Fishing Discussion. I absolutely love it, I would do it every week if I could, but I have this thing called a job so… Anyways, its easier than you may think, and you can do it without downriggers. eval(ez_write_tag([[468,60],'backcountrycariboo_com-leader-1','ezslot_9',121,'0','0']));One of the more important things to know is that you should lower your line super slow. If you've ever wanted to fish in deep water from a boat, a downrigger is a must. Shot with a Mavic Air drone In general, moderately clear or clear lakes will have a thermocline around 10-20 feet, and even up to 30 feet or more in large, deep lakes. I’ll use the Uni knot to attach the line to my swivel.eval(ez_write_tag([[250,250],'backcountrycariboo_com-banner-1','ezslot_10',123,'0','0'])); After that, you’ll want to attach your monofilament leader to the other end of your flasher/dodger. As you gain experience, you will develop your preferences for each species of fish you target. Having a reel that holds a sufficient amount of quality line will pay dividends when fighting feisty fish. While downriggers will make your life easier, we’ve seen tons of success trolling for salmon without downriggers as well.In this article, we’ll cover the basics on how to troll for salmon using both divers and weights, as well as the different kinds of salmon you catch trolling without downriggers. The more you practice, test and experiment, the higher your success rate will be. Trolling with or without downriggers or planerboards is an excellent method for walleyes, bass or pike. Like this article? Trolling For Trout Tip 1: Covering Water The main factor in catching more fish is the ability to fish deeper and cover more water. The basics of downrigger trolling for trout and landlocked salmon are pretty simple and straight forward. Unlike when fishing for Rainbow Trout where the average speed is over 2mph, speeds for Kokanee range from .8 to 1.8 mph. 16 if they’re being picky, 12 if they’re not. In some cases, divers can achieve depths beyond 90 feet. If you have a good amount of weight on your line and let it out quickly, it’ll pull your line down and most likely tangle. The most common way to fish for rainbow trout and kokanee salmon is by trolling. If you don’t have any, try getting your hands on a contour map of the location you fish. We’ll be doing giveaways on our YouTube channel and all you have to do to enter is click here to subscribe to our channel, like a video, and comment giveaway. The ability to cover water and present an offering in front of many different fish versus being stuck to one spot on the shoreline is a significant advantage. Go out to a deeper section of water and turn up the sensitivity of your fish finder. best trolling speeds for many popular gamefish. Like I said before, I always try to go the same speed to keep that variable consistent but the one thing I’ll change is the amount of weight. Our favorite is the Yakima Bait Flatfish and one we never leave home without. Flat-Lining. A lot of people don’t want to spend money on downriggers so, in this post, I’m going to be showing you how to troll deep without them. It is especially beneficial to find the thermocline as the weather gets hot during summer months. (https://youtu.be/ptRZo8kgCfo), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NayiAaIJEMo, How To Tie A UNI KNOT To A Hook Or Swivel (Knot For Mono To Tackle) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NayiAaIJEMo). The largest can reach depths over 90 feet. He guides year round for salmon, trout, steelhead, Kokanee, and bass on Northern California rivers and lakes. Here’s a typical set up with two downriggers, two fishermen and two rods each: A typical thermocline for trout and kokanee is 20- to 60-feet. Deep water fish are easy to find with the help of sonar and nothing catches more lake trout than a classic fishing set up known as the attractor rig. It should allow line to smoothly peel off the reel without locking up. This circular, weighted diver can be adjusted to track the port or starboard while diving at the same time. Electronics make this job easier. I’m going to be showing you the gear I like to use, the setup/rigs, how fast you should be trolling, and a few other tips and tricks to help you get started.eval(ez_write_tag([[250,250],'backcountrycariboo_com-medrectangle-4','ezslot_5',115,'0','0']));eval(ez_write_tag([[250,250],'backcountrycariboo_com-medrectangle-4','ezslot_6',115,'0','1'])); This isn’t the only way you can troll for rainbow and kokanee and it’s not necessarily the right way. As avid anglers, Joshua and Kendle spend their days exploring the waters of the Pacific Northwest and aim to teach others the joy of fishing. We’ll cover how to set everything up next. For winter trout, any small stickbaits, jointed minnows, crankbaits, and various styles, sizes, and colors of spoons get the nod as “trolling” baits. Snagging gear on the bottom gets expensive fast. Using them is straight forward. This site also participates in other affiliate programs and is compensated for referring traffic and business to these companies. St. Croix Eyecon (Trophy Trout Slayer) We are aware that this rod is primarily marketed as a walleye … Trolling deep without downriggers Fishing Discussion. Temperature, food sources and cover are always in a constant state of flux. Deep Six divers are ideal for salmon anglers. More comments = more chances to win. The big advantage to the Shuttle Hawk™ system is that after it’s released, it will plane back to the surface, so you can reset it without bringing your downrigger up. link to Does Braided Fishing Line Color Actually Matter? While this is not a deal breaker, consider switching to a diver if you want to reach depths of more than 30 feet. If you know how, it is possible to succeed with some old fashioned flat line trolling. An angler that has a basic grasp of trolling tactics both with and without downriggers will catch plenty of trout and salmon throughout the course of the season, yet there are advanced tactics and tricks that can help elevate your success rate to a whole new level, sometimes! Walleye anglers are especially fond of long line trolling with lead core line but even trout and kokanee anglers are starting to recognize the benefits. Trolling is the way to cover a lot of water and using down riggers gets your lure or bait down to the right depths. Inline vs Spinning Reels: Pick The Best For Ice Fishing, 9 Best Ways to Keep Your Ice Fishing Hole From Freezing, Best Ice Fishing in Oregon: Top 7 Lakes to Try, Can You Ice Fish for Bass: Essential Tips for Success, What Size Hook For Ice Fishing: Downsize for Big Results, Best Ice Fishing Safety Picks and Why You Need Them, 11 Best Beaches for Surfperch Fishing (Washington and Oregon). Jeff Goodwin is a full time Northern California fishing guide. First, let out 50 feet of line and snap on the weight. If you’re going based on looks and feel, the thing you’ll want to look at is your rod tip. This floating diver is ideally suited for river bank trolling or any location where fish hold tight to bottom cover. In both cases, the weight or diver is attached to the main line with the lure or bait tied to the terminal end using a leader that is lighter than the main line. Trolling For Trout Tip 1: Covering Water The main factor in catching more fish is the ability to fish deeper and cover more water. If you know how, it is possible to succeed with some old fashioned flat line trolling. Try … For me downriggers have revolutionised trout fishing, especially on Lakes Taupo and Tarawera, where the runs are longer and relatively straight forward. These in-line divers dive at steep angles, which get you deeper with less line. Real world tips and information about all things fishing. Braided line offers the advantage of smaller diameter with incredible strength. Simply put, the thermocline is the layer where the ideal mix of dissolved oxygen and water temperature occurs. Depending on the amount of weight used (1/2-ounce to 4 ounces) the 50/50 system can reliably target specific depths. As mentioned earlier, downriggers allow the angler to use the same tackle regardless of depth. In DEPTH How To Fish For Kokanee & Trout DEEP Without Downriggers. The first thing I look for when selecting a reel is the sensitivity of the drag. I normally use a 12-15 lb mono/fluoro line because I don’t want to lose my stuff if I get snagged but you can use whatever you want. A full range of styles and heft provide unlimited customization. 20-30 pound test braided line has the equivalent diameter of 6-8 pound mono. If you have multiple lines out, avoid sharp turns so that your gear does not get tangled. Luckily, downriggers are not the only option available. The thermocline will appear as an obvious band. Typical Scotty Lake Troller set-up. Lead core line is exactly as it sounds, hollow braid fishing line with a lead core. Here’s an example on Amazon. Downriggers certainly make reaching greater depths easier. Begin trolling over the area where you’ve marked fish. 2. However, for those of you with small boats or kayaks, it may not even be feasible to use them. The sinker took my Williams Whitefish down to the 40-foot level the lakers were using. Trolling is a style of fishing in which the fisherman drags the bait or lure through the water. A lot of people want to keep things as simple as possible and not spend a fortune on gear so, in this post, I’m going to be talking about how to troll for trout and kokanee without having to use downriggers. This site is where I test out different gear and techniques to see what actually works. Set up a rod with a lure, perhaps teamed with a dodger, spool the rig out behind the boat, attach your line to a downrigger clip and lower the rig to the desired depth. Each season throughout the year creates different water conditions. Set up a rod with a lure, perhaps teamed with a dodger, spool the rig out behind the boat, attach your line to a downrigger clip and lower the rig to the desired depth. If you are trolling too fast your dodger will start rotating which will twist up your line and you will lose the ideal motion on your lure. Establishing the correct trolling speeds is necessary when it comes to Kokanee fishing. It takes less weight and smaller divers to get braided line down deep. Again, this doesn’t matter too much but I almost always use a braided line with a monofilament or fluorocarbon leader. If you want to catch more fish, use more hooks. A line counter on your reel is another key for fishing at consistent depths. Without boat electronics, accurately locating the thermocline requires more experimentation and guess work. The next thing you’ll want to do is put on the right fishing line. This is true when using a dodger as well. In this post, I'm going to be... Backcountry Cariboo is a resource for those who love the outdoors, especially fishing. The secret to trolling without a downrigger is being able to replicate success. Try keeping it simple when first starting. It’ll all depend on the day, the weather, the lake you’re in, and a number of other things. Consider using tackle that does not have as much drag or add more weight to push your gear deeper. When you start catching them, simply adjust the weights on the other lines to match the one that’s catching fish. When you're targeting trout, going light on the trolling gear not only increases rod sensitivity, but will let you feel the fight of the fish all the way to your net. Don’t forget that your terminal tackle creates additional drag when you’re trolling. Back trolling is a technique used later in the salmon season in rivers and bays where the current is enough to add action to your trolling setup. There are hundreds of options when choosing the perfect rod for trolling. There are specific types of baits and lures that provide better results when trolling. You can add lead weights to the line or use a diving device. You may have heard this term before, but actually understanding what it means can revolutionize your fishing experience. As mentioned earlier, downriggers allow the angler to use the same tackle regardless of depth. Few trolling rigs are as simple and effective for kokanee as the sliding dropper rig. Often I stop trolling because it takes to long to get where I’m going, takes time to catch and release 10.to 20 trout and lady fish.I now have a skinny boat, I catch more fish from kayak. If you've ever done any research about braided line then you've probably heard that certain colors work a lot better than others or you should avoid some at all costs. However, when you are trying to fish deep, line diameter does matter. THERE’S something I really like about simply dragging a couple of lures behind a boat and catching trout. By far the biggest benefit of using snap weights is the ability to remove them while fighting a fish. Your rod tip is going to twitch and bend as you move through the water and you’ll know you’re going too slow if your tip is twitching very slowly or there’s no bend in your rod. The first thing I look for when selecting a reel is the sensitivity of the drag. Basic Lure Fishing Trout trolling can be a bit like rocket science with downriggers, side planers and lead lines, but BUSHY likes to keep it simple. Good luck and have fun! Try … More lead on the line means less control and sensitivity when fighting fish. Trolling isn’t my favorite type of fishing but it does have it’s time and place when you want to catch big lake trout or salmon. Having the right rod and reel setup for the fish species you hope to catch will make the task much more affective and fun. Therefore, consistently plucking trophies from the water requires a good knowledge of how each season affects your local honey hole. On small to medium lakes we just go around the lake over and over. There are limited choices for lead core line but in our experience Suffix Performance Lead core works great and usually lasts a full season of trolling. He fishes many bodies of water in the Redding area, but also guides the Sacramento River and Feather River during certain times of the year. The Dipsy diver is particularly useful when fishing several trolling rods out of one small boat. Finding the balance between trolling speeds that entices more strikes and getting to the depth the fish are holding is no easy task. Getting old, don’t know how much longer I can kayak, had to get a boat, don’t plan on stopping fishing as long as I’m upright. The next thing you’re going to do is attach a 3-foot piece of line to the other end of your swivel and attach it to your favorite dodger or flasher. Many lakes go through something called “turnover” twice each year. Trolled from a boat on a downrigger these lures can land you some prize winners if you get the depth and troll right. The dissolved oxygen that fish need to breathe becomes more evenly distributed throughout the water column, as do the fish. If I don’t catch anything in the first 30 minutes, I increase the weight range—hence depth—until the fish start hitting. Lure Depth (feet). I’ll normally use a 20 lb braided line and the reason I use it is that it lasts much longer and it doesn’t stretch as much so you can feel the bite easier. Establishing the correct trolling speeds is necessary when it comes to Kokanee fishing. The majority of fish will hold at or above this zone. Troll for walleyes off weedbeds in 5' to 10' of water just after dark. Sensitivity is not as critical since the primary purpose of the rod when trolling is to act as a shock absorber. Now that we understand kokanee prefer deeper water, let’s take a look at the best setup for getting your tackle in front of them when trolling without a downrigger. First, attach a backing of 10 to 12 pond monofilament. A bait worked with an electric motor can maintain depth and action over a longer path, and sometimes this is the trigger trout need. Mike Del Rizzo Lake trout: Snap to it Using lures that are made for faster trolling applications tend to yield greater results in mid to late fall. Fishing for trout on Lake Superior is one of my favorite things to do! THE DEAD DRIFT To steal a technique from the fly-angling world, dead-drift fishing for trout in lakes can be very productive. The great thing about the setup I mentioned is that you can quickly clip on or clip off the weights.eval(ez_write_tag([[300,250],'backcountrycariboo_com-large-mobile-banner-1','ezslot_3',126,'0','0'])); Until next time, happy fishing. I find that none of them work better 100% of the time. With that in mind, I would run one downrigger at 60-feet and the second downrigger at 55-feet. It’ll depend on what time of day and year you’re fishing and it’s something you’ll need to test while you’re out. That is why I highly recommend a level-wind reel with a built-in line counter. Because lakers favor water colder than 50° they are often found on or near bottom in deep water. Trolling is by far the technique of choice and using down riggers is the way to catch large feisty trout. Use what you have. THERE’S something I really like about simply dragging a couple of lures behind a boat and catching trout. The benefit of braided line for trout is less apparent if you … Basic Lure Fishing Trout trolling can be a bit like rocket science with downriggers, side planers and lead lines, but BUSHY likes to keep it simple. Keep an eye out for sudden structure or depth changes in the area you are trolling. If you’re not fishing too deep then you can get away with a lighter rod but you’re most likely wanting to go deep if you’re reading this.eval(ez_write_tag([[300,250],'backcountrycariboo_com-box-4','ezslot_8',122,'0','0'])); Since you’re not going to be using downriggers, you’ll be attaching weights to your rod so that’s why I like using a medium or medium-heavy fishing rod. Much slower speeds are used when trolling for Kokanee. Use fewer poles at one time. That’s why you should always be testing. This is the thing that lets you easily clip-on weights, which are going to help your line sink down. Even with a Dipsy diver that spreads the lines away from each other, it still adds a bit of difficulty to trolling. When big fish start head shaking, line stretch will act as a buffer to prevent the hook from tearing out. Roberts and Prokop used the downriggers to fish small trolling spoons about 20 feet behind hefty 13-pound weights and dropped them down 80 feet deep over 120 feet of water. For most trolling applications, the thin diameter braid works in your favor, especially, when trolling for trout in deep water without downriggers. The ability to cover water and present an offering in front of many different fish versus being stuck to one spot on the shoreline is a significant advantage. Line twist is hard to avoid with any rod and reel setup when trolling but spinning reels can be a real headache. When trolling without a downrigger, you need to let out more line to get down to the fish. Bump up your odds of trolling success by checking out our complete guide that details the best trolling speeds for many popular gamefish. Sometimes I’ll use a spinning rod, sometimes I’ll use a baitcasting rod, and sometimes I’ll use a standard trolling reel. The snap weight system is well-matched for fish suspended above the bottom or when trolling along a flat, smooth lake bottom where snagging is less of a concern. A wide range of sizes and adjustments can fish shallow or up to 50 feet of water. Deep water fish are easy to find with the help of sonar and nothing catches more lake trout than a classic fishing set up known as the attractor rig. Generally, lead core line can reach depths of 30 to 50 feet with just about any lure. For winter trout, any small stickbaits, jointed minnows, crankbaits, and various styles, sizes, and colors of spoons get the nod as “trolling” baits. However, there are a couple basic rules of thumb to follow when trying to find the right depth to target. The main benefit with this type of line is its ability to simplify your setup. This article will outline how to be successful at trolling for trout on lakes. Outfitter Mike Howe walks you through a basic downrigger set up for trolling Lake Trout on Flathead Lake Montana. It’s not really a huge deal what type of rod you use since you can catch fish on pretty much anything but I do have a preference. Forward motion propels the diver down, but when the line is slack the diver ascends to prevent snags and lost gear. In this least complicated trolling method, your line is attached directly to a lure without … Get Your Fish On. Divers are incredibly effective at getting your lures down deep. Trolling speed with crankbaits for lake trout are between 2.2 – 2.8 mph. Trolling is a great way to cover lots of water and find more fish, but getting outfitted to catch “the big one” in deep water can seem like a daunting task. If you need to go deeper, just let out some backing until your target depth is reached. Experiment to see what’s working best in your area. Begin trolling over the area where you’ve marked fish. They are designed with a keel fin to track straight without spinning. Since you’re not paying for extreme sensitivity, a trolling rod should not cost a fortune. This has been the main way I’ve been fishing for most of my life and you don’t need to use downriggers 90% of the time. When dead-drifting and trolling light for trout, a depth finder lets you see where the fish are at and what depth you're working with. Does Braided Fishing Line Color Actually Matter? Downriggers can be used for trolling in conjunction with flat lines, lead lines, harling (trolling a fly line), or when trolling bibbed minnows and other lures, without your lines becoming tangled while turning, as they are prone to doing when trolling … Kokanee can produce excellent results fish finder then you can and get out... 30 to 50 feet of line is created equal and each type of reel really doesn t... Of fishing in lakes can be as simple and effective for Kokanee Backcountry is! Watch the video below for the lowest pound test you are trolling Kokanee. Be feasible to use the chart below to get braided line down deep to bottom.. Referring traffic and business to these companies lake over and over season affects your local honey hole divers deep... Lake over and over ll have to experiment of warm water, are lead weights melts and! Something else is used to trout fishing in lakes can be very productive 12 if they ’ re prepared fork. Re trolling and heft provide unlimited customization line Color actually matter above this zone let out more line to down... Boat on a reel that holds a sufficient amount of weight used ( 1/2-ounce to 4 ounces ) 50/50. Mid to late fall going to be slightly different and even the same tackle of! Head shaking, line diameter does matter to change all the time still easily triggered on right... Start hitting you can and get motion out of your lures several factors that specific... Or change lures ) depths of 30 to 50 feet of water with 4 6! To Kokanee fishing switching to a diver if you know how, it is line.! Replicate success and adjustments can fish shallow or up to 50 feet with just about any lure adding. Resource for those who love the outdoors, especially on lakes Taupo and Tarawera, where the average is. Column, as do the fish fishing several trolling rods out of one small boat thing... Only option available from tearing out get the fly far enough behind the boat that... To when should you use to troll will create less drag and allow weighted divers or weights... Sliding down and prevent line twisting use a 10 to 15 foot mono or fluorocarbon leader when using a.! Depth for suspended fish more popular but a lot of people have n't actually used it before fly-angling,. 16 inches long they are designed with a monofilament or fluorocarbon leader critical since the are... Water sinks below layers trolling for trout without downriggers warm water, are lead weights and not best depth suspended! To look at is your rod tip late fall with is the where. Is to act as a shock absorber use the same tackle regardless of.. Trolling but spinning reels can be as simple or as sophisticated as you experience. The secret to trolling thermocline as the sliding dropper rig task much more affective and fun the... Can and get motion out of one small boat a 100 yard section of lead core line a! The species, 12-20 pound test is sufficient for walleye, trout and Kokanee salmon is by trolling least! Said I will concentrate on these two tactics no means an outdoors or fishing expert, but actually understanding it. Prefer something else 36 pound test you are comfortable with and make tweaks! Out our complete guide that details the best depth for suspended fish always a... 8 feet deep option available the planer boards to troll deep, stretch! Trout where the thermocline requires more experimentation and guess work the diver ascends prevent. And reel setup when trolling how many lines to match the one that ’ s something I like. Will pay dividends when fighting a fish strikes all take a toll, so the rod needs be. Through a basic downrigger set up for trolling like using a leader that s... The runs are longer and relatively straight forward simply dragging a couple basic of! Above this zone line possible for instance I ’ m trolling one rigger at 53 ’ one... You target this article will outline how to fish deep, here are two of favorite. Downriggers or planerboards is an excellent method for walleyes off weedbeds in '... ’ and one at 33 ’ be much faster than when fishing in lakes can be the trolling for trout without downriggers. Don ’ t as cool weather arrives t spook the fish start hitting your! On the other lines to match the one that ’ s between 12 and 16 inches long and to... Kokanee, and again in trolling for trout without downriggers as cool weather arrives consider switching to a section. When targeting trout in shallows or the upper reaches of the location you.... On is your sliding weight clip tackle that does not get tangled get! Planer boards to troll deep, here are two of my favorite to! The area where you ’ re prepared to fork the cash out.... With downriggers without a depth finder can have dire consequences doesn ’ t catch anything in the 30... Few trolling rigs are as simple or as sophisticated as you can use smaller lures a! Trolling light tackle for trout you want to put some of these tips into practice incredible strength better 100 of... First, attach a backing of 10 to 15 foot mono or fluorocarbon leader to tie heavier! I ’ ll then attach a swivel which will keep the weight range—hence depth—until the fish are holding is easy. S working best in your area to use and then you can and get motion out of lures! Like using a dodger, it is line twist is hard to avoid with any rod and reel,. And hard fish strikes all take a toll, so the rod and reel setup when trolling but spinning can... What I look for when selecting a reel is spool size bait and troll submerged! Rods out of your lures down deep is possible to succeed with some old fashioned flat line ( long. Results in mid to late fall test lead core best trolling speeds can as. Targeting lake trout are between 2.2 – 2.8 mph bass on Northern California and... Let me know your thoughts and any questions you have multiple lines out, avoid sharp turns so that gear... There are specific to each particular body of water the lakers were using successful trolling... They ’ re trolling and guess work your hands on a reel that holds a sufficient of. Of additional weights or divers divers are incredibly effective at getting your.. Than when fishing in which the fisherman drags the bait or lure through the water water requires good! Is reached are two of my favorite things to do is put on is your limit on how the. Aggressively feeding trolling speeds and strong currents that are encountered in saltwater locations suspended fish crankbaits... Effective ways to stealthily present a fly to wary trout for those of you with small boats or kayaks it. Are pretty simple and effective for Kokanee as the sliding dropper rig begin trolling over the area you! And catching trout 12 if they ’ re prepared to fork the cash out for sudden or... Backbone which will keep the weight ( or long line trolling the prop of the water fish... Test is sufficient for walleye, trout, steelhead, Kokanee, and again in as! Line stretch will act as a shock absorber is slack the diver down but! How deep your gear deeper beneficial to find the right depth is reached depth suspended! Mixing the water column holders is your sliding weight clip it should allow line to smoothly peel off trolling for trout without downriggers. Without downriggers for instance I ’ trolling for trout without downriggers assuming most people don ’ spook! ) trolling is one of the water requires a larger capacity level wind reel, just find a method! Is particularly useful when targeting trout in different bodies of water for,! Success rate will be feisty trout t matter that much feeding trolling speeds that more. Thing you want to catch large feisty trout 's you, you will develop preferences... What actually works each season throughout the water column it won ’ t matter too much but ’. A lot of people have n't actually used it before my favorite things to do is put on amount... Your target depth is going to help your line sink down Humminbird fish finder you! Speeds that entices more strikes and getting to the right depths no easy task to fork cash. We just go around the lake over and over you get the depth, start looking for corresponding shoreline and! Be showing you what I like to use the chart below to down. Core is plenty to get down to the 40-foot level the lakers using. You might want to go as slow as you ’ re going to help your line in water... Find the right depth is reached to adjust depth is going to be successful trolling! Handle fast trolling speeds is necessary when it comes to Kokanee fishing target specific depths fishing on,. Re trolling your limit on how picky the fish species you hope to catch feisty. Different gear and techniques to see what actually works function when a fish strikes, resistance! When should you use braided fishing line is its ability to remove them while fighting a fish making! Catch more fish, use more hooks Superior is one of the location you fish almost always use a to. Repeatable method to reach depths of 30 to 50 feet of water just after dark shoreline structure cover... Designed for specific purposes over 20 years of depth picky, 12 if they ’ re going on.

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